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This is what will come their way Macedonian Army Mi - Oct. I think for the moment they haven't regrouped but that's not to say they aren't around. They will regroup at any moment the albanians feel that we have a human rights problem according to the albanians. So there is a saying that don't count your chickens before they hatch.

So they have said they aren't worried by macedonian army so called progress. Pertaining to economic cooperation between Albania and Kosovo, the movement has criticized the Berisha government for disrespect of agreements, claiming it is unthinkable to introduce reciprocity with the Kosovo economy. The Albanian and Serbian governments share identical policies towards Kosovo. We will create a joint economic market. Unification with Kosovo is our goal", the party said in a press release.

The movement was against the first ethnic census in Albania, whereas the Constitutional Court assessed upon his request that term 'nationality' is an unconstitutional category, thus erasing all minorities, including the Macedonian, from the register. It was common knowledge ten years ago Terrorists had that arsenal in fact allot it, I am glad they can think they can walk on water.

It is rather bold to claim French Secret Services are on the ground cooperating with Terrorists to blockade Macedonian NATO accession chances The Chickago summit is not about expansion and it has been made clear that Macedonia will not be invited. But everything else we will wait and see in the next hours and days. Quite simply the display and resulting actions of a people under a progressive and well implemented psychological conditioning, designed and carried out with absolute resolve by its leaders, who through the adequate attainment and provision of resources, and the ability to adapt and evolve methods in accordance with the altering environment and political landscape are amply prepared to capitalise on opportunity or weakness whenever presented, for the ultimate function of achieving their primary strategic goal, a goal which has been agreed to encompass and serve best the interests of their people in sustaining and protecting the longevity of their liberties.

Hating the player or the team who's strategy on playing the game surpasses your own teams strategy serves little purpose. Such a similar script you can super impose the lies of the Albanian Dispora with a time line of and it is identical to a tee How did that ridiculous movement for peace work out by the organisers in Skopje What do you mean it isn't our job to fight it? If you are a Macedonian that cares for his country, it IS your job. And I never mentioned the government anyways, it's quite clear to everyone on earth that the Macedonian government is useless.

When I say government, I mean all the governments from forward. What do you mean it isn't our job to fight it? You all know the drill it is tiresome write a letter of complaint to a Foreign media source how many do it honestly and to what worth, I am sick to the bone like you all we requiring to make the effort that is what I mean. I'm upset by this statement, To say the government is useless or ineffective is part of the slave mentality that believes in the "not as good as others" type mentality for Macedonians which now seemingly extends to the government's abilities.

I believe the government is very capable and is engineering a brand new country before your very eyes. This brand new country will not be Macedonia as we understand it. An accurate and objective assesment of current realities, very difficult to argue against! Just wanted to share this, the Municipality of Kavadarci knows what it is doing!

It invited an official delegation from the municipality of Voden in Aegean Macedonia to sign an agreement of cooperation in the field of tourism. This is who we should be inviting to have more agreements with! Our brothers from Aegean Macedonian cities. This is what they should have been doing from the start not fratenising with the shiptars. I didn't know anything about this Kavadarci mayor until last year when I heard that he was making personal trips around Europe looking for investments.

At first I assumed he was another corrupt small town mayor looking for free trips, but now he's brought a large industrial investment, and the above article mentions him establishing cooperation with Aegean Macedonia. So far, this is something to be happy about!

It seems Kavadarci has shown some good initiative. They could top it off by getting rid of the ventilator and even perhaps that EU flag. Remember now, only the Albanians are allowed to remove the ventilator. Macedonians would probably be arrested if they committed such an act. English translation Bilingualism has somehow unexpectedly surfaced from the Framework Agreement From the moment they were seated in their positions, all panels with official names were translated into Albanian and so were websites; updated to include an Albanian version All ministries that are governed by Albanian ministers have an Albanian version website.

Official boards now bear logos in the Albanian language. Official correspondence between employees and departments in these ministries is also conducted in the Albanian language. Letterheads and printed material in the ministries and institutions run by Albanians is done in the Albanian language.

International official correspondence carried out by Albanian ministers with their foreign counterparts is conducted in the Albanian language. This it seems is more or less an overt attempt by the Albanian minority in Macedonia to become equal to the Macedonian majority in official circles. It seems that bilingualism is pushed in Macedonia but who exactly is pushing it? Does the Constitution support the official use of minority languages in the ethnic communities? Does the Constitution allow the Albanian language to be equal to the Macedonian in mixed communities where members of a minority exceed 20 percent of the population?

Just last week two pieces of public information surfaced pointing to the official use of the Albanian language being employed outside of the Constitution and outside of the law. The second piece was a message from Nasufi Ipchja, Secretary of State of the Ministry of Health, addressed to the Skopje health institutions and hospitals, and to the clinics and hospitals in the municipalities where over 20 percent of the population is Albanian, asking them to use Albanian as an official language.

According to the information Ipchja made a request that, besides the Macedonian language, all tables, referrals, hospital reports, recipes, fiscal accounts and all written communication and documentation of patients in these institutions should be in the Albanian language. These are just two of the many examples where the Albanian language was put into official use.

Employees in ministries and institutions run by Albanian ministers have also said that, outside of the oral addresses and directives given to them by their official in the Albanian language, their aim is to make use of the Albanian language for the entire official documentation. This includes regular use of facsimiles and memoranda in certain institutions regardless of whether the text of the documents is in both Macedonian and Albanian.

They also have requested that names of Albanian government officials be exclusively written in the Albanian language. The spontaneous introduction of the Albanian language as an official language equal to the Macedonian has especially made progress in the ministries held by Albanians. Once seated in their positions, Besimi, Minister of Defense and Blerim Bexheti, Minister of Justice, have updated all panels bearing the official names of the ministries to include information in the Albanian language.

This however, has not been the case with other Government ministries or other Government websites, which contain exclusively Macedonian information and an English version. And with that the Constitution defines the official language of communication between citizens and institutions.

As for the official correspondence within the institutions of government, meaning at the central level, the Constitution states that one can introduce another official language, other than Macedonian, but only the law. The use of the Albanian language in official purposes is defined in the Constitution, in the Law on Assembly and parliamentary rules and in the law on languages of ethnic communities.

Even though these documents clearly define when, how and by whom a language other than Macedonian can be used, there are no penalties defined for their abuse. Experts say that in this case, if there is no criminal or misdemeanor provision, for officials and civil servants who do not respect the law, then there must be political responsibility. The wide use of the Albanian language at the administrative level in the central institutions of government was discussed in Parliament a month ago.

The DPA has said that it will challenge the legality of this law through the Constitutional Court and will put forth a new law to the Parliament that supports full bilingualism in the country. Only in Macedonia, the land of equal opportunity Perhaps we should translate this thread into Albanian just to be fair or stupid. That is the point. We in the Diaspora don't have to learn Albanian. We don't have to wave the ventilator around like idiots.

We don't have to do anything but celebrate our identity. Macedonians in RoMacedonia think they have to do all of this. But they don't either. Good point risto heaven forbid do you think the albanians will change the flag to the bald headed eagles. It's all related to attitude. The "Museum of Freedom" in Skopje. A great place for tourists.

I am stunned Don't be, this is only a small glimpse of Macedonia's future, and a warning of what is to come. The value of macedonian citizenry cheapeapened by letting this scum have their way. No respect for the name skpje they use their own version skupi. Don't be, this is only a small glimpse of Macedonia's future, and a warning of what is to come.

You're actually offering hope when you write that. This is now and it has already arrived. This would be like the turks make a museum for the kurds haha. Does anyone have any more questions about the Framework Agreement? I think the museum picture says it all. Well, easy, theoretically. If the police, army, and border police were allowed to do their job, they could no problem make sure that kosovo and local terrorists couldn't make a move.

While that's going on, the politicians can simply say that no longer is this FA legal, and it does not respect Macedonia, Macedonians, or even multiethnicity. The problem is, the security structures in Macedonia are not allowed to do their job, and therefore we are constantly being told "we are threatened by war". In no normal world would peasants with aks on their donkeys be considered a threat to sovereighnty.

As for the regular shiptar citizens, they also wouldn't say boo in the event of a war. They might 'support' terrorists, but they themselves wouldn't do anything. They have no respect for our faith and vandalise churches. Ofcourse MKPrilep videos such as this one help us not forget that. These people and the taliban should hold hands and set fire to the world.

George, you're looking at it the wrong way. Peace at all costs is no peace at all. So what if war is the only way? If your bottom line is no war, then we might as well give Macedonia up now as you've already shown your cards and the Albanians will get it all eventually anyway.

But if your bottom line is justice then war may be necessary. That is wishfull yhinking. I think a war is a necessary evil to bring a country back on track. Why bother to arm if all your doing is letting them take over you. That is disgusting the way our churches are being burned. What happened to those people burning the church a slap on the wrist. I do not condemn macedonians if they burn their fucking mosques. I hope you got that that is my opinion.

If you don't like it bad luck. Is there a law agains't self preservation,self identification. Wanting to have a fatherland or homeland.?? They make it sound like its going to happen in days. A lot of assumptions there! Either way, you would think they are the majority there right now. If we let them they will take over that's why a real war will prevent them from taking over.

Maybe they could all go to kosovo. Ivanov should revoke their illegal citizenship. Why doesnt Kosovo call them back like the Jews and Israel. Doesnt Ahmeti and Tachi love their beloved Kosova. This information was also expressed and carried by B The document from Tirana contained four parts which specified the conditions and how to set up a new state in the Balkans. According to the latest Gallup survey - Balkan monitor- which was conducted last year, the creation of Greater Albania is supported by; 63 percent of the residents in Albania 81 percent of the Albanians in Kosovo 53 percent of the Albanians in Macedonia.

The formalization of this decision took place on December 27, Albanians then boycotted the Macedonian referendum on secession from Yugoslavia, under the pretext that the new constitution was unfavorable for the Albanians. Macedonia shouldn't support them at all since they aren't proper macedonian citizens.

THey should find some way so that they are not locked in a loop where they are just giving in to them. Will the Albanians be ceding the lands in Albania where Macedonians live and have lived? Didn't think so.

BC they are locked in to the ohrid agreement?? The albanians are trying to take us over. I would not be surprised if the macedonians in albania get booted out to rom. AS to a war it is inevitable that it's coming. THe albanian issue has to be dealt with as the question of sovereignity is insurmountable. Also the macedonians in albania are being badly being treated. Souvenirs in the Airport Alexander the Great in Skopje. Siptarian souvenirs in the Airport Alexander the Great in Skopje.

Thanks for posting those photos from Skopje's Airport. Can't wait to buy one of those "I love Albania" pens and t-shirts. What great souvenirs from a country that has completely lost its mind! There is not a day in Macedonia were we see the most obscene disrespect of Macedonian sovereignty and culture, this must come to a fork in the road.

US Ambassador to Macedonia holds special meeting with Ahmeti today in response to the murders US Ambassador to Macedonia holds special meeting with Ahmeti today in response to the murders. Wuldnt surprise me if the shiptar defense minister for macedonia is sitting down in that little conversation. Zarni is also correct in saying this is a blatant sign of disrespect from the US towards macedonia Keep in mind during this time we had reports of armed shiptar terrorists walking around macedonia Surely something is being cooked by the shiptars e.

Not "possibly". The Albanians did this period. If they don't have any regard for us why should we. THe rom govt should do it's duty. I'm surprised the govt has done nothing apart from giving the shiptar terrorists amnesty. I'm not surprised from this scum they never regretted what they did killing innocent civilian people they aren't even sorry for what they did.

I'm speechless. Macedonians in the next war fuck them show no mercy the same way they didn't but multiply it timesa. Western funded and ringleader of the incidents at Kale and foot soldier for Ahmeti? It is sad to say but we have lost Macedonia who knows when we will wake up and have the courage to stop this madness. We need to live in peace with them not kill each other. It's time for the state to assert its authority, these sorts of crimes need to be solved quickly and ruthlessly if need be.

Is that Artan Grubi next to Ahmeti? You must fail at everything in life if you give up this easily, and I don't even know why I am saying 'give up' when you haven't even had to lift a finger to begin with. If this is how you feel, I suggest you stop posting on this thread.

You are depressing and out of touch with reality. If it was reversed where Macedonians had massacred those poor children, then the US and the west would have been a public outcry. The west is strangely silent on this horrid tragedy, further showing support for the dirty ungrateful shiptar bastards blatant disrespect and disregard for living in Macedonia.

Along with burning our churches and looting icons and damaging our places of worship. This tragedy will be covered up by our kurva government in Macedonia as was the awful incident with the policeman. We have filth in parliament along with Ahmeti , former supporter of the KLA planted by hypocrite US and the national defense minister a dirty shiptar Police are being heavy handed with Macedonians peacefully protesting the murders , seems massacring dispensable Macedonians is no big deal and something that must be endured Macedonia, your sons are being sacrificed as lambs on our holy Orthodox Easter, by muslims that despise us and condescendingly spit upon the rules of the country they live in.

Macedonian sons are being slaughtered and the Macedonian government sits and does nothing. Macedonians wake up, whatever the outcome, it is time to take a fucking stand and show the world that we are Macedonians, forever downtrodden upon treated like shit by the west and by the likes of ungrateful albanians with territorial aspirations with no intention of assimilating like migrants do in the west It is time to stop Macedonian bloodshed and massacres, this murder was planned, and executed with intent.

Yes there has been ample time for the typical mouth piece Western media spinner doctors to comment but nothing but silence prevails. Ask them they killed 4 of our kids I hope every shiptar pig dies. ProMKD what have you done I dont see you doing anything constructive, why dont you go there and start killing some shiptari. Zarni I know this and this is why things get even more complicated. Ask yourselves what are the Macedonians in Macedonia doing, forget the government what are the people doing.

They are the ones who could have stopped the ramkoven dogovor. They are the ones who have to say enough is enough. Diaspora Macedonians can talk all they wont at the end of the day unsless we physically do something it seems that many in ROM are happy for this to go on. So proMKD what are you doing that I clearly am not? ProMKD, when have Macedonians in Macedonia lifted a finger to help themselves against the Ohrid Agreement and the treacherous Macedonian government whom they largely voted for that continues to enforce and perpetuate it?

I know of a few, nothing I'm going to mention on a public forum to people I don't know. The very LEAST any Macedonian can do in the world is give a crap, which many members on this forum publicly state they do not. If you don't care about your country and ethnicity, what the hell do you care about?

Why do you post on Macedonian forums if you don't care?? I don't understand!!! The problems that we discuss on this forum are problems that hurt the Macedonian cause, yet everyday I read on here the members repeating those mistakes and still bitching about them at the same time!

Good point When have Macedonians anywhere in the world lifted a finger? Careful Volk, you can spit on Macedonians in Macedonia all you want, but the diaspora Fact is most Macedonians are not proactive in doing what should be done regardless of where they are in the world Its time people realised that you lose what you don't defend.

ProMKD answer my question I never said I dont care Things are getting so out of hand that not even the diaspora can do much about it. We have stopped protesting because the prostest should actually be happening inside Macedonia for a real change to occur. Answer your question? The question of what am I doing and why am I not killing shiptars?

First of all, it's extremely asinine to ask someone publicly why they are not murdering other people. Do you not see the logic?? A vague response to a specific question. The very least you can do is address your concerns directly with individuals rather than making sweeping generalisations and unfairly characterising this forum.

There are a range of opinions here, what did you expect? If we didn't care, would this forum exist? If several Macedonians in Macedonia don't care about their country or ethnicity when it comes to matters of national importance, what the hell do they care about?

Do you understand why they care about what they do, while the country goes to the dogs in the meantime? Blame the diaspora when RoMacedonians failed to make the referendum count. Also blame them when they continue to vote for coalition governments.

Why exactly would it be my fault? Albanian freedom fighters in the museums, Ohrid Agreements, terrorist amnesties. Yeah sure, its my fault. I should have sold everything gone and become a citizen and voted not to accept the Interim Accord, then everything would have been ok, so therefore I am to blame for this entire farce! ProMKD you dont know what you are saying all you do is generalize. If you dont wont to answere my question openly them pm me.

Again I will ask what are you doing that I am not. Find me posts of me being negative or "giving up" or " forgetting Macedonia". Learn how to read and interprets comments before making bold statements about me not caring clearly you do not know me so you can not make that statement. What a load of garbage. If YOU are unware of what is going on don't immediately assume that 99 per cent of the world is zombied out with you.

Why don't you read my posts carefully lavce, look: Secondly, I don't have to explain myself to anyone, because I am not the one saying "i'm embarassed to be Macedonian" or "Macedonia should be forgotten". Notice I said, "if you haven't said it, other members here have". It's hard to quote everybody word for word, so I made sure i mentioned that that statement doesn't apply to you if you haven't said it. Secondly, I didn't generalize the way you all make it seem.

SOME members of this forum, Macedonians, publicly stated they don't give a rats ass about Macedonia anymore. I say, shoot the bastards, what are they good for? And to address the "vagueness", I stated before, this is a public forum and is absolutely no place to "spill the beans" on anything that is actually happening that is of national importance. I'm not directly referring to government, because I've voiced my opinion enough on that matter they're fools , and I'm going to leave it at that.

If you don't like vagueness, sorry. This is the only time that I answer questions vaguely, so you should respect it. It's for a reason, not because I just feel like it. What are you talking about? If you think otherwise, you're delusional and need psychiatric help. In fact, it's your posts that call most people sheeple which obviously I agree with so I don't understand what your problem is.

I've never referred to anyone as "sheep". When I refer people suffering from the slave mentality, that is not a reference to them being unaware of what is going on, but to something much worse, i. If you went to any Macedonian home RoM, Occupied lands or diaspora at random what do you think is the likelihood they don't even understand the FA? They also suffer from the 'someone should fix this' mentality as long as that someone is not them - where is there ANYONE formulating any sort of firm action above the level of recognising something is bad and saying 'someone should fix this'.

Lastly the government is supposed to be made up of smarter people who also care as they have the power form laws, investigate and demand answers and have the greatest resources at their disposal yet are not doing anything, which is a harm in itself, but also serves to make the individual feel alone and helpless. Combine these 4 things and you have an F'ed society and future. I would have thrown up. Albanian souvernirs at the Aleksandar Veliki Airport.

What can be done about it?? Can they put a stop to it,the'll cry discrimination. Just throw it out and let them cry discrimination. U are the majority still and u have to show them that they are in Macedonia and not Albania. Or is it open slather they can do anything they want.

They are not protecting Macedonia, they are actively enhancing this division of the country The group said it would attack what they referred to as "Slavo-Macedonian" army and police unless they retreat from "occupied Albanian lands" within the next two weeks. A statement to this effect was posted on the Albanian-language website Potalb. It further said that this "army" also has its "general staff", which met in Kosovska Mitrovica and decided to issue its ultimatum to the state of Macedonia.

The text was published at a time of rising tensions in Macedonia after the murder of five ethnic Macedonian men near Skopje. The investigation into the assassination is still underway and Skopje-based media do not exclude the possibility that the crime was ethnically motivated.

The group's statement also claims that rights of ethnic Albanians are "violated on a daily basis in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". The country's prime minister, Nikola Gruevski, is described as being "pro-Serb", and accused of "spreading anti-Albanian ideology and instigating assaults on innocent Albanians", while "Albanian villages are blocked by Macedonian Slavs and nobody among corrupt politicians in Ethnic Greater Albania is reacting because they are all traitors to their homeland".

The group further threatened "to avenge our brothers", and said this would take the form of "fire against fire, eye for an eye, arm for an arm". Macedonia is just ripe for the pickings. Gruevski doesn't seem to have the balls to do anything but capitulate. George that is a pathetic statement doesn't anyone understand a Defence ministerial head aint the ARM he has very little input in Operations Not that I like for one moment the head.

George that is a pathetic statement doesn't anyone understand a Defence ministerial head aint the ARM he has very little input in Operations Not that I like for one moment the head What about secret or sensitive information? Zarni that statement sums up the arm ready to capitulate. THe defence minister says jump they say how high. It's a done deal we are like hostages on the kosovo issue we do as were told or else. I can't get it any planer than that. Everyone is ready to capituilate to the albanians.

Did you niss the bit that the albanians have said through dui. Ahmeti said they owe macedonia no allegiance should another war in kosovo spill in macedonia. That is why the macedonian govt get the message do not cooperate with the albanians anymore do not capitulate on your soveregnity. From the Wikipedia article "Republic of Macedonia" "The country has problems with the human rights of its ethnic minorities. Although Albanians have recently been allowed to study in the Albanian language, before graduating from university they are required to pass a test of their comprehension and use of the Macedonian language.

It looks like the government has been letting them build up their presence by buying up land and building homes and mosques, but to what end? How comes that no one is interested?!?! On the other hand we will build now the first church in strumica that is so big, but after 20 years of waiting and who knows when it will be finished. The dominance of the Macedonian land - like dogs marking their territory. From you and everyone else buying oil from the katari from Qatar.

The RoM government is not even using existing laws to stop this hence they are complicit, hence they are probably paid to be sell-out traitors. Pretty soon there will be nothing left as all will be given away. The "cantons" have emerged after the civil war in Albanian guerrillas have conducted ethnic cleansing in the mountains north of Tetovo, especially the Sar Mountain. There are few who wish to live in the Macedonian villages where churches were burned," Uzunov declared. He said that the ethnic Albanian population in Macedonia is growing rapidly not only in the Western parts of the country.

Krasimir Uzunov known as an expert on the Balkans and the region of Macedonia in particular has been exposed as a former agent of the Third Directorate of the State Security service, which was the military counterintelligence service of communist Bulgaria, in Don't forget that a large church was originally planned for the main square in SKopje and the Albanians were successful in blocking it because Macedonians just didn't care.

If they could they would also block the church in Strumica. Anyway, there is still no excuse why a large Macedonian city is not capable of building a large church, for example in both Strumica and Bitola there are foundations for a new church that were poured 20 years ago and construction still hasn't started, whereas smaller Albanian villages are building mega mosques with 50 meter minarets in less than 2 years. Actually Niko the church planned for Skopje was not large but a small one However you are right, people did not care and a lot of people did not want it there.

Also why must we keep building churches everywhere? Macedonian demographic is decreasing whilst the albanian is increasing This is the number one issue in the country and there is no strategy to counter it.

The VMRO government made attempts to give money for every child in eastern Macedonia, however the constitutional court dominated by SDS deemed it 'racist' Go figure! And why is foreign country allowed to spend money for building mosques.

And why is every new mosque so big?? To mark the territory? For me, I would like to know how this works? How albanians get the money from the arabs. I found this "old" article Classified documents seen by The Sunday Times reveal that Macedonian officials are also investigating a number of Islamic charities, some in Saudi Arabia, which are active throughout the Balkans and are suspected of spreading extremism and laundering money for terrorist organisations.

On the contrary, Gruevski is going to Qatar to aks them for more "investments". Thanks for the source. After everything that has happened last week Macedonia invites Albanian President Bamir Topi for a friendly visit! I'm surprised i see the ventilator flying usually it's only the 2 headed eagle. It must be a "special" occasion. Cair Mayor Medziti: Skopje has historically been a very important city in Albania!!!

This came as a result of territorial division, conducted in and I am in this position for a second term. This qualitative development has enabled the Albanians to first decide on their priorities, resolving fundamental problems than those commonly associated with the infrastructure or the quality of services. To stay here, since I have been elected to the office of mayor of Cair, Skopje's Albanian national symbols are restored.

It is important to note because before there was a strategy to strip Skopje's historic importance and meaning it has for the Albanians. It is known that Skopje until the '70s has been a city with more Albanians, earlier it was the center of the vilayet of Kosovo, previously it has historically been a very important city in Albania. This process has involved not only the municipality of Cair that is the heart of Skopje, but the entire city, our national flag is equal to the state flag. Also in it was decided the monument of Skanderbeg, in a country that will soon be the name of the largest square of Macedonia.

Illyria was founded museum that includes the period of the Albanian League of Prizren to the National Liberation Army. These days it is the end process of renaming the street in Skopje, including first names and events of our history, from the Illyrian period to the new Albanian history. The competition was conducted and work has begun. So even for tourists to come to Skopje, with our religious diversity is an asset of ours, but persevere along the Albanian Skanderbeg monument represented with Mother Teresa and Peter Bogdani, European and popular figure.

Maybe someone should email this to some Macedonian media outlets. While we can agree that FA employment is widely acceptable, I'm sure we can also agree that it is Medzitis job to give made-up, crazy, inflated numbers. I don't believe that shit for a minute, I hope you don't! While we can agree that FA employment is widely acceptable What makes you think we agree with that? What makes you think we agree with that? You misunderstood me. I said we can agree that the FA is widely acceptable - i meant to the institutions in Macedonia.

Therefore, I'm saying, although we all agree that the government employs shiptars for the sake of them being shiptars, I still disagree with the numbers that medziti picked out of the air. I read none of this in the mainstream papers. What does that tell you? There needs to be a public outcry. Skopje is beautiful, but this tree garbage is clearly corruption!!! I think that is pretty low when the perpetrators think they can get away because the law is lax.

Or because of political expediency it is swept under the carpet. We should want our country more than any other and we should be prepared to defend it, but we shouldn't want war. They were before, and they still are very good at fighting a psychological war. If the citizens of Macedonia fall for it just like last time they will start packing their bags and moving away, thus leaving their apartments, houses, and villages abandoned and open for domination.

This happened last time, and it will happen again until the Macedonians become conscious of the outcome. The Macedonians ran away from Tetovo and Aracinovo like there was a pending nuclear war, and never came back. They went to Detroit, Sydney, Toronto, and never plan on coming back. The shiptars? Although anything is possible, I think they would prefer and are trying to have a psy-war.

A dumb-ass article I just read in Utrinski by some shiptar 'economist' who says that Tetovo citizens pay far more tax than other cities populated mostly by Macedonians, therefore Tetovo should receive most of the federal budget. I left most of the long article out, but as I summarized above, they just expand on that idea.

What I hate about Macedonian retard-media, is that the idiot who wrote this in Utrinski Maja Tomic thinks that Tetovo has , citizens, and Bitola , Tetovo city is 60, - let's just say 80, with all the villages, and even that's pushing it. Bitola is 85, - let's say , with the region.

How the hell do you come up with , and ,?!?!?!? If they can fake the census they can fake anything. Their population is supposedly like ten times of what it actually is. Which is all lies. This is the worst thing that could hapen is the govt giving in to them. If they are not vigilant enough they are going to take them to the cleaners. What's the point of a war? Even if we win, like last time, the Pax Americana will dictate that we seek peace with these pieces of shit and give them more rights than any minority anywhere in the world.

Reading this shit you can clearly see they are allowed to do anything they want and their 'backers' keep allowing them to while keeping us down. I rather have a real macedonian tatkovina than having to share it with the shiptars. And everything goes back to normal the next day? Come on Belomorec, be realistic and think about the consequences and how Macedonia will meet the response of such an act. There are other ways to reassert the Macedonian character of the Macedonian state.

Bombing a town and murdering its civilians is not the answer. Are there? Name one that has worked so far. Let me ask you this: Do you think Albanians will ever stop their agenda, insane as it may be, of a "Greater Albania"? Do you think any action will ever make them integrate within Macedonian society in a way where they see improving the future of the country as their main goal rather than their own selfish agenda?

Do you think they will ever see Macedonia for what it is: The homeland of the Macedonian people, therefore a sovereign nation that should not be interfered with? Do you think they will ever respect Macedonia and the Macedonians? You know the answers to those questions.

If an eye-for-an-eye mentality is good enough for America and Israel, why isn't it for Macedonia? It wont work because you have already signed official documents granting those rights. Trying to go back on them will only make the International Community critisice you for oppressing the "minority" and will cause a loss of support and even a boomerang effect. Much like what happened to Milosovich. On the other hand causing a war maybe the only viable option to start from a clean slate but there are also risks in that if global players get involved again which im sure they will.

Alternative way would be to breed like rabbits and de facto change conditions on the ground, but how many families are willing to do that? Can the governement hand out benefits to Macedonian families to having more children without the Albanians getting treated the same way?

You can just join us, we may be broke for now but we have one hell of a sealine. I can guarantee you wont see a mosque being built ever again. Yes, there are. Then enforce this with an increased security presence in places where there is potential for disturbance.

No need to bomb one of our own cities, even if it does have a significant ethnic Albanian population. Name one Macedonian government that has wanted it to work so far. Do you think Albanians will ever stop their agenda, insane as it may be, of a "Greater Albania"? For many of them, probably not, at least not in the near future. I admit that many if not most probably don't want to, but if they could live without their unreasonable privileges before then they can do it again.

If they don't like living in a Macedonian Macedonia then it is their choice to stay or leave. If they attack the state then they should be confronted by Macedonian security forces. That is up to the Macedonians and the governments they vote for. It is only natural for ethnic groups to favour their own, but it's the responsibility of the state to ensure that laws are adhered to and that the indigenous culture and language remain prevalent.

All Macedonian governments have done a poor job on both counts since gaining independence from Yugoslavia. Macedonia has neither the power or backing that America and Israel have. Doing what you have suggested would give our enemies the excuse to finalise the destruction of the Macedonian state, a task started much earlier by successive Macedonian governments. You're idea is based on emotion, not logic.

Think about it. This isn't the Middle Ages where you can sack a city and walk away without any consequences. Tell me, what do you think the consequences will be of such an act? I believe there was such an initiative in the past but not sure what happened with it. There is only one sealine we're interested in : I can guarantee you wont see a mosque being built ever again. Don't be so sure. Probably not.

Can you name one serious attempt to integrate Albanians into Macedonian society since independence? I can't think of any - all I've seen is a successful program to segregate them while at the same time providing them with greater control over state institutions. Only in Macedonia can one find such a contradiction! There are a few more options left, one is alluded to in the MTO's definition of the cause and has been discussed in some detail.

That is not the intent of the phrase, though it is used to convey that by many who don't understand the original. Regardless, why should we become murderous criminals? For what purpose? Even if it were to come to war, Macedonians do not need to undertake heinous crimes. So we are literally giving ourselves over to the shiptars.

It was a man arguing with his ex-wife and her new boyfriend, 3 old people. The new boyfriend eventually pulled a gun he's a lawyer with an illegal gun and show the other guy in the leg - no big deal. Just mentioning this so you guys don't think it's shiptar vs macedonian shooting. There are practically no shiptars in Kozle. A "hot war", for lack of a better term, will only serve best the interests of Macedonia's enemies. At present should such an event take place, in respect of Macedonia, the losses will undoubtedly outweigh the gains.

As for RoM, superfluous rights bestowed on particular citizens via an internationally brokered agreement which has to the extent been ratified by constitutional amendments will not be allowed to be retracted on the basis of internal democratic policy alone, rather as the state has proven itself incapable of resolving a particular internal issue without the aid of external mediation whether willingly or be force , then by such precedence, the external mediators are considered obligated to include themselves in any attempts to replace the said agreement, for the "purpose" of ensuring any proposed replacement remains acceptable to the interests of all parties involved.

Hence in this respect, sovereignty has been bypassed. Now if the external mediators intentions are by no means "neutral" in any extent of the word, then it can be considered that their support will lie with the parties who's interests align best with their own. Its only then that the gravity of attempting to amend the current situation to the detriment of the party who benefits most from it, and the possible repercussions of such an act, becomes ever more clear.

So to put it in other words, once you invite the wolves in the flock, they only leave once they've had their fill. In my opinion it would seem naive to think that all the actions of our neighbours are at the result of their interests alone. Any action embarked on should solely correspond with the "kind" of Macedonia that is intended to be created or sustained. Once this has been identified, the options available on how to achieve this goal should become clearer.

Hehe, fair comment, I'm not a lawyer but I guess I'm accustomed to having to express myself in a professional manner, probably an indirect consequence of my occupations. Matters I have serious opinions on I tend to treat in a professional manner and therefore I suppose I express myself the same.

Welcome to the forum by the way! Sometimes people post in big words just to seem important, that's why I was bugging you, but from your second response I believe that you actually understand the words you are using. See you around the forum! Nice signature, I've never heard that quote before, I like it.

So do you think the wolves will leave once they had their fill. The current shiptars have made it known that they want the whole of macedonia as it belongs to their illirida. They want it all. Hard to disagree with your much of your opinion Tomche.

I feel it is purposely open for significant degrees of interpretation though. In relation to the above, who do you believe is driving the "kind" of Macedonia you speak of? My opinion is simple. Albanians represents a sphere of influence in the region that the USA can manipulate. They are an easy grouping of people to work with.

The USA's interests in the Balkans are best served dealing with a group of people with aligned national interests. Macedonia has no real ally and the lure of the EU seems utterly delectable to the politicians and the citizens. Membership in the EU will also do little for Macedonians.

In a nutshell, Macedonia has no future unless Macedonians decide on a future for themselves. Welcome aboard TM. But not to attempt it would mean voluntarily surrendering Macedonia to a minority group led by racist extremists.

War is undesirable to say the least, but many times it is unavoidable if we are to have a just peace in the long run. What type of actions do you think would be appropriate under these circumstances? SELO ne grad glumovo I think the mosque is as big as the new church in Strumica which till now is only to find in youtube The mosque is real. I bet this mosque has been approved with plans etc??

I have heard in some cases the albanians build it without even asking. By the way, I think we need to open a thread specifically for all the Macedonian Orthodox Churches that have been robbed or vandalized. The topic should be closed for discussion, and should only provide links and quotes of articles where everybody can clearly see all the news for themselves.

Riste: "In relation to the above, who do you believe is driving the "kind" of Macedonia you speak of? Reading through this thread I think it's safe to say we are all in agreement that the manner in which the Albanian predicament has been handled by RoM would be described as poor at best.

However, there can be little doubt that the social and cultural effects of the mass experience of vi- olence and death during the s were profound and colored all aspects of life during the postwar decades, even when this was not necessarily articu- lated explicitly. But what precisely these effects may have been, what exactly the connections were between the violence of the s and the normal- ity of the s, remains extremely speculative.

It presents a challenging agenda historically, methodologically, and personally. It is challenging not least because the profound importance and deep consequences of this violence can hardly be grasped if ones vision remains xed on the cold calculus that has become so familiar a feature of the histories of the dark continent during the age of extremes, 5 on those terrible abstract numbers of the millions of human beings who were cut down in the killing elds of Eastern Europe and in the extermination camps of the Nazi empire, of the millions who were killed, maimed, or scarred for life on the battleeld or in bombed-out cities, of the millions who were brutally uprooted from their homes and forced to rebuild their lives in new and often strange and even hostile surroundings, of the millions who were subjected to sexual violence, of the millions who would have to lead the rest of their lives without fathers, mothers, sisters, and brothers, and children whose lives had brutally ended in the greatest human slaughter ever.

For a long time research on the late s and s was concentrated on the reconstruction of political and economic structures, especially in Germany. It was centered on the question of how the mistakes made in the treaties of were avoided after How were economic and nan- cial structures established that compelled the countries in Central Europe to cooperate, brought the United States into the frame, and provided a 5 This criticism, it should be made clear, cannot be levelled at those ne general texts which have put these phrases into common usage: Eric Hobsbawm, Age of Extremes: The Short Twentieth Century London, ; and Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: Europes Twentieth Century London, How were political systems re created that were based on a number of democratic parties while not adopting the severe tensions of the interwar period?

Questions such as these did not have as their focus individual experiences, collective memories, or other cultural phenomena such as lifestyles. Research on the victims of the Nazi persecu- tion of the European Jews has demonstrated how difcult it was for them to remember their traumatic experiences and to communicate this to their respective societies.

Research on how ordinary citizens survived the war and came to terms with it has only begun, reecting growing interest in the emerging consumer society of the s and its gendered aspects, as well as in the rituals of the public commemoration during the s of war and occupation. The chapters in this book are therefore situated in a new eld of research and attempt to break new ground.

Their perspective is interdisciplinary, international, and comparative; together they combine the most recent ap- proaches to the history of the late s and s in Europe. Obviously, not all of them deal with their subjects in the same manner. Some are primarily case studies, asking rather specic questions and drawing on rich source material; others take a broader, more explicitly comparative approach or place particular emphasis on more theoretical questions.

It is therefore not surprising that some focus more on the issues related to violence whereas others concentrate more on those related to normality. We would like to have seen all parts of Europe that had been involved in the Second World War fairly equally represented in this book; however, despite our hopes and efforts this proved impossible.

Western and Central Europe are overrepre- sented, whereas Eastern Europe is underrepresented. Nevertheless, we hope that the essays gathered here will stimulate further research in this part of the European continent as well. As satisfactory methodological concepts have not yet been developed to describe the effects of the large-scale experience of violence on individuals and on whole societies, this book begins with a rst, suggestive attempt at lling that gap by linking psychiatric approaches with the social history of the war and early postwar years.

Originally developed for veterans of the Vietnam War, this concept covers a wide range of symptoms that can be found in many people involved in violence, both as perpetrators and victims. Taking the German society of the s and s as their example, F orster and Beck pose new questions for a number of issues. From this perspective, mental and medical Introduction 9 problems become tracers for different degrees of involvement in violence, as silence not only serves as an expression of guilt but also as a strategy of coping in private and public when other paths are not taken.

Public mourning was one way to help individuals come to terms with their experiences of war. Sabine Behrenbeck describes how in both postwar German states, despite their differences, the dead members of the former Volksgemeinschaft national ethnic community were commemorated in pub- lic ceremonies.

Whereas in the German Democratic Republic a commem- oration calendar emerged that placed the victory of the Soviet troops and the Communist victims of Nazi persecution at center stage, in the Federal Republic public mourning concentrated on the Volkstrauertag in November and blurred the distinctions between soldiers and civilians, perpetrators and victims, by eventually including even the German prisoners of war.

How- ever, the principal victims of Nazi persecution, the Jews, were not explicitly mentioned, and only after the mids were they given their own place in the public memory of both German states. To the West German reections or lack thereof on the murder of the Jews, Ido de Haan adds the Dutch and French experiences and concludes that in these countries, too, there was no specic place in public memory for the victims of the Holocaust.

In the Netherlands, public discourse focused on the history of occupation and resistance, whereas the persecution of Jews was regarded as a German affair. In France, Jews were dened as part of the republican nation and thus be- came indistinguishable as part of the resistance movement although, unlike their counterparts in the Netherlands, they were entitled to receive com- pensation for the persecution they suffered.

De Haan also asserts, however, that public mourning did not progress gradually from silence to memory but rather shifted between the two, depending on the political context. During the s, women had been affected by wartime violence more than ever before. Atina Grossmann, focusing on Germany, looks at their efforts to reclaim a sense of identity and agency. In doing so, she contrasts the relative unwillingness of German women, who sawthemselves as victims of war and occupation, to bear children, with the tremendous upsurge in births among Jewish women survivors in the displaced-persons camps in Germany.

For German women, many of whom had been raped, not having children allowed them to re-create the material conditions of normality; for Jewish women survivors, by contrast, bearing children both offered an opportunity to be and feel normal and fostered a kind of productive forgetting after the horrors of the recent past.

Shifting the geographic focus farther east, Andrea Pet o discusses the traumatic experience of Hungarian and Austrian women who had been raped by Soviet soldiers at the end 10 Richard Bessel and Dirk Schumann of the war. Whereas a public conspiracy of silence developed after owing to the political circumstances, the victims themselves developed an economy of emotions that enabled them to distance themselves from the acts of rape.

In Hungary, the rapes helped to create a myth of national victimhood, which minimized the Hungarian contribution to Nazi rule in Europe and helped shape an anti-Soviet identity. In her chapter, Joanna Bourke shifts the attention to mens agency and mens experiences generally, and to the act of killing specically, and asserts that the evidence testies not to breakdown but to resilience.

Focusing on British and American soldiers, she contrasts contemporary fears revolving around the stereotypical gure of the veteran which suggests that re- turning soldiers, brutalized by their experiences, would pose a serious threat to public order and the ways soldiers found to distance themselves from the horrors of war and their own behavior by creating out of the chaos and the violence they had inicted and endured narratives that were both ordered and sensible.

It was in marriage and family that mens and womens experiences and ways to cope with them met. Dagmar Herzog presents the thesis that the s in Germany were less sexually repressed than often portrayed and that the same could be said for the Nazi period. Drawing on a wide range of sources, including marriage counseling texts and opinion polls, Herzog demonstrates that during the late s and early s there was a high level of consent to nonmarital sex, that information on sex practices was easily available, and that the rst mail-order service for pornographic material was a great success.

This changed only in the mids, when the inuence of conservative forces increased, particularly of the Catholic Church, which had denounced Nazism as too permissive in sexual matters. Pat Thane, set- ting developments in family life in postwar Europe within a broad social and economic perspective, conrms Herzogs thesis for Britain. There, too, the s brought about a further loosening of the codes of sexual con- duct, whereas other features of social life such as demographic changes and very low unemployment rates after the war marked a break with pre- war experience.

Class also mattered: The postwar economic boom and the changes it generated affected the working class most of all, where for the rst time parents could expect that their children would have better lives than they did and where working-class families in particular saw a trend toward greater stability in their lives.

Michael Wildt, focusing on postwar consumption in West Germany, places his ndings in a similar perspective and points to the ruptures as well as the continuities with war and prewar experiences. Anxieties about a possible third world war were ever-present Introduction 11 during the s, leading to constant efforts to stockpile extra food at home; and thrift remained a valued quality through the s, although the fact that consumers increasingly bought on credit suggests that things look different when one examines everyday practice.

By becoming able to participate in mass consumption, West Germans during the course of the s became westernized and came to accept their new democratic state. Wartime experiences also were dealt with in the narrative that shaped postwar political culture in a broader sense. Focusing in particular on Spain and Germany, Damian van Melis presents the thesis that the Catholic Church viewed itself as the victor among the ruins of the war.

Glossing over its silence in the face of Nazi crimes, the Church interpreted the violence of the war as a result of disobedience to God and turning away from the Church, just as the violence of the Spanish Civil War had been perceived as a result of disobedience.

The Church was concerned more with reaf- rming its traditional worldview and moral rules than with taking serious issue with the violence of the war years, especially the Holocaust. In his contribution, Pieter Lagrou contrasts the First and Second World Wars in France, Belgium, and the Netherlands, and points to the difculty of con- structing homogeneous national memories after In contrast to the First World War and to the experiences in Eastern Europe during the Sec- ond, the actual ghting in the countries he discusses was over very quickly; collaboration and resistance, deportation and persecution of the Jews, not the daily confrontation with violent death, marked most of wartime.

He afrms the thesis put forward by Behrenbeck and de Haan that in public remembrance the Jews were excluded from national memory, and suggests a fascinating paradox: In the First World War a relatively homogeneous ex- perience was followed by divergence, whereas the divergent experiences of the Second World War were followed by greater uniformity.

Donald Sassoon describes for Italy the problems of constructing a national narrative of the war years that was generally acceptable. There the Communists were virtually in charge of who was in the resistance and its narrative, and they created a national narrative in which most people were unable to recognize themselves and which obliterated the possibility of creating local narratives.

Sassoon places particular emphasis on the myth of the good Italian who had been involved in the war and in Fascist crimes only by accident, which eventually served as a unifying myth that cut across party lines, although at the price of obliterating the history of Italian anti-Semitism as well as Italys colonial history.

The last two contributions explore the culture of everyday life, thereby taking up some of the other topics from a different perspective. Drawing on 12 Richard Bessel and Dirk Schumann Walter Benjamins reections on art in the industrial age, Paul Betts examines howthe legacy of the Bauhaus was used in both Germanies after In the Federal Republic, an aesthetization of economics gave industrial design a new prominence and engendered the shaping of all sorts of consumer products in an explicitly modern fashion, whereas the public presentation of politics remained muted.

In the GDR, there was no break with the past aesthetization of politics, but there also were efforts to design consumer goods in a manner clearly distinguished from the Nazi years. Alon Conno offers the thesis that the re-emergence of tourismin Germany after was not, as usually claimed, a hallmark of a new culture of mass consumption. Rather, it was a continuation of a tradition from the s that had been interrupted for six years, but also as contemporary statements of former German soldiers demonstrated an attempt to remember the days of war without being politically incorrect.

This changed in the course of the s, when a younger generation of tourists who had not been in the Wehrmacht traveled to the sites of Nazi crimes in order to pay respect to the victims. Altogether, what unites the chapters in this book is their focus not simply on the violence of war but on how to explain and understand the social and cultural history of what followed. It is the relationship between the violence of the s and the normality of the s; it involves an attempt to under- stand the s as the post-history of the s.

Of course, the terms violence and normality are terribly broad and mask a huge number of exceptions, but they serve as a helpful shorthand that allows us to approach a central aspect of the history of the twentieth century. One of the most striking character- istics of the period that followed the decade of violence was its relative peacefulness, stability, and conservatism not only in terms of politics but also in terms of social and cultural life. If the s may be described as the decade of violence, the s arguably may be described as the decade of normality a decade in which one saw an apparent normalization and stabilization of political, social, and cultural relationships.

We can see this in the remarkable and contrary to longer-term trends declines in rates of reported crime, divorce, and illegitimacy. Other indications are the triumph of conservative politics of no experiments, from Adenauer to Macmillan, the conservative tone and content of lm and television, the constrained discussion and restrained expression of sexuality, and the circumscribing of gender roles. After the upheavals of the s, people were desperate to put their own worlds back together, to re-establish what they regarded as normality.

However, the normality of the s coming as it did after the greatest outpouring of violence in human history was anything but nor- mal. It was, both collectively and individually, life after death. Nevertheless, Introduction 13 it continues to provide the images of normality to which people refer and compared to which they frequently nd their own world wanting images of a world that now appears to have fallen apart.

That is to say, perceptions of present-day political, social, and cultural developments are conditioned by a remarkable image of a golden age of stability and normality that itself was an amalgam of social, political, and cultural reactions to the violence of the s. This point highlights why the subject of this book is special: It is as much about ourselves as it is about an objective, detached narrative.

We, of the generations born in the s, s, and s, grew up in a postwar world, a world in which mass violence and death was a huge dark shadow of the past and where the present was, by contrast, remarkably benign and sunny. There can be few subjects whereby the observation that the shadowy gures that stare out at us from the tarnished mirror of history are in the nal analysis ourselves, more apposite than with the peculiar social and cultural history of Europe after the Second World War.

Over the past few decades one of the main preoccupations of modern European historians and this certainly was true for historians of modern Germany trained during the s and s was how to explain the path into fascism and war: How did the interwar dictators get into power? How did political systems develop that could imprison and murder hundreds of thousands, and nally millions of the people under their control? How was humanity pushed down the road to Treblinka?

Relatively little thought was given, until rather recently, to the question that, for us and for the world we inhabit, is probably even more important: How did people emerge from these horrors? We have given enormous thought to how Europeans got into fascism and war; the time has come to understand, in social and cultural as well as political and economic terms, how Europeans got out.

The research presented in this book spans several countries and approaches this question from a variety of disciplines. The specic point that this chapter proposes to address is whether the under- standing of the individuals reaction to life-threatening violence can con- tribute usefully to the body of research on the German society of the s.

This chapter raises questions and generates new hypotheses or tools for fu- ture empirical research. The crucial question remains whether it is at all admissible to use medical concepts to generate hypotheses for historical research. World War II exposed many individuals to extreme and prolonged vio- lence, and works of ction as well as historical essays and books attempt to describe the way in which ordinary Germans experienced the war. Wolfgang Borcherts play Draussen vor der T ur captured the atmosphere of the early post- war years.

The play describes the guilt, pain, nightmares, and nally suicide of a returned soldier confronted by various people, such as a former ofcer and the director of a cabaret, trying to forget the war and return to normality. Returning to normality was particularly important in the s.

Besides Wolfgang Borchert, Heinrich B oll also vividly described the early years in postwar Germany in his tales and novels. See, e. Romane und Erz ahlungen I , 3d ed. Cologne, , According to psychiatric observation, certain traumatic experiences engender specic symptoms. We summarize relevant aspects of the psychiatric literature regarding reaction to combat, atrocities, rape, and life-threatening violence, and then attempt to describe the di- mensions of the problem in Germany during World War II from a historical point of view.

Moreover, we look at ways to investigate the impact of in- dividual disturbance on the society of the s. First, however, we dene the concept of post-traumatic stress disorder PTSD before moving on to examine the experiences of people in Germany. However, medical acknowledgment of such a reaction came much later. Reinbek bei Hamburg, Er hatte kein grosses Interesse mehr an uns Kindern und seine Stimme klang hart When the war began and my father had to become a soldier, everything changed.

He no longer had much interest in us children, and his voice sounded harsh. Das einzige was bei ihm sicher war, war, dass man nie sicher sein konnte ob er nicht pl otzlich losschlagen oder losschreien w urde. Could my father have been a different father, a proper father, without the war, without the horrible experiences that he must have had as a doctor and never spoke about?

The only thing certain about him was that you could never be certain whether he might suddenly lash out or yell. See L. David Kinzie and Rupert R. German psychiatric research following World War II focused mainly on the victims of the concentration camps, who were interviewed for compensation claims.

The term post-traumatic stress disorder was coined for the symptoms that developed following the experience of an event that is outside the range of usual human experience and that would be markedly distressing to almost anyone. Symptoms of depression and anxiety frequently occur in conjunction with PTSD.

Washington, D. In the third edition of , when PTSD was rst included in the manual, survivors guilt was also among the symptoms. Orsillo et al. The authors summarize critically the current research on the association of PTSD with other psychiatric disorders and then present their own results on Vietnam veterans. Although lifetime rates for alcohol abuse or dependence were highest among the veterans, they did not differ between those with or without a diagnosis of PTSD. However, alcohol and drug abuse can exacerbate symptoms of hyperarousal.

The severity of the trauma determines the percentage of traumatized individuals who will develop typical symptoms of PTSD. In medical re- search, no distinction is made between civilian and war-related trauma. An American epidemiological study reported a 1-percent history of PTSD in the general population and 3. A study of female crime victims in Charleston County, South Carolina, found 9.

During World War II, rape was not an infrequent occurrence and was often combined with death-threats. Family histories of mental illness, preservice adjustment problems, and severe childhood trauma did not predict the occurrence of PTSD. For a reviewof the literature, see also OBrien, Traumatic Events, Helzer, L. Robins, and L. Kilpatrick et al. Sutker, Albert N. Allain, and Daniel K. Engdahl et al. These research ndings were incorporated into the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders DSM IV , leading to a change in the denition of trauma.

The fourth edition of the DSM describes the trauma as follows: 1 the person experienced, wit- nessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others; and 2 the persons response involved intense fear, help- lessness or horror. Note: In children this may be expressed instead by disor- ganized or agitated behavior. The diagnosis of PTSD does not involve a moral judgment, only the presence of certain symptoms following trauma.

The concept underlying the denition is biological. The other events included being subjected to enemy re, being wounded, being at- tached to a unit in the South Vietnamese army, being surrounded by the enemy, being separated from ones unit, being on combat patrol, having a buddy killed in action, and witnessing atrocities. Statistical methods were used to control for the fact that stressful events often occurred in conjunc- tion.

Participation in atrocities increased the risk of PTSD by 42 percent, independent of having experienced any other stressful event. However, there also was a cumulative risk of PTSD with an increasing number of stressful events. Recent research has focused on the subjective appraisal of traumatic events rather than objective factors. The au- thors attempt to elucidate the relationship between the nature of the stressor and the ensuing symptoms.

The traumatic experiences of the veterans were divided into four categories: 1 being the target of killing, 2 being the observer of killing or atrocities, 3 being the agent of killing or atrocities, and 4 failing to prevent killing. The two latter categories involved feeling responsible for the killing. The trauma experience itself was divided into high and low responsibility categories, and the symptoms were the number of suicide attempts, a general measure of psychiatric distress, and the three clusters of symptoms relevant for a diagnosis of PTSD re-experiencing, hyperarousal, and numbing and avoidance.

The authors found that being the target of an attempt to kill was strongly related to a diagnosis of PTSD, particularly to symptoms of hyperarousal. The authors concluded that the subjective experience of being the tar- get of an attempt to kill was associated most uniquely and strongly with PTSD.

This is in keeping with the ndings of the previously cited studies of war veterans and crime victims. The experience of being responsible for killing others or for failing to prevent harm to others was related to suicide and psychiatric symptoms not included in the classical denition of PTSD. Fontana et al. An earlier essay by William B. Gault, a Harvard psychiatrist who treated Vietnam veterans, lists six factors that in his opinion facili- tate the occurrence of slaughter.

One of the factors is dilution of responsibility. Recent data from a group of former World War II veterans who also had been POWs show that only a small minority ever received treatment for PTSD although over 50 percent had experienced PTSD during their summarize up-to-date work on cognitive appraisal of danger and the role of moral conict. They then present their own data on 1, Vietnam veterans.

The six factors are: 1 the enemy is everywhere, 2 the enemy is not human, 3 dilution of responsibility, 4 the pressure to act, 5 the natural dominance of the psychopath, 6 repower. Most veterans in the study showed no signicant occupational problems. However, a second veteran who was described in detail and still suffered from PTSD describes himself as underachieving at work due to his personality.

As a prisoner, he had survived the Bataan Death March and had witnessed senseless executions and death-threats. His weight had dropped from to 80 pounds. After a long series of life-threatening episodes, he returned home, married, and raised three children with his wife. He was never promoted during thirty-six years at work. He suffered from daily intrusive recollections, frequent nightmares, hypervigilance, and survivors guilt.

His only social contacts outside the family were other POWs. He never had been treated for psychiatric problems prior to participating in the study. The main conclusion that can be drawn from the work cited thus far is that following severe, life-threatening trauma, psychological problems, particularly PTSD, will develop in more than 50 percent of cases and can persist for long periods of time.

Suicide attempts and guilt feelings are most likely to occur in individuals who felt subjectively responsible for killing others or for failing to prevent harm to others. However, only a minority of such traumatized individuals will seek treatment. Moreover, PTSD affects not only the sufferers themselves but also their families.

The symptoms she regarded as crucial are the numbing of responsiveness and reduced involvement with the external world, as seen by diminished interest in signicant activ- ities, feelings of detachment or alienation, and constricted affect. Several studies show how Vietnam veterans had difculties in maintaining close re- lationships. One study quoted in the review found that veterans who were involved in atrocities suffered from guilt and fear of their violent impulses.

There also is some evidence of child-battering and wife-battering. One of the studies found that 50 percent of the couples seeking help reported 24 Engdahl et al. The incidents were particularly frightening and violent, and had led to professional consultation.

Citing the Presidents Commission on Mental Health of , the review notes that 38 percent of Vietnam vet- erans marriages failed within six months of their return from combat. The author asserts that, in the marriages of PTSD sufferers that do not end in di- vorce, the wife often must bear an enormous psychological burden that can lead to depression and social isolation.

The difculties encountered by married couples with a spouse, usually the husband, suffering symptoms of PTSD are likely to affect children as well. The veterans attempt to control his childs aggressiveness may be out of proportion. The main ndings of the study were that child behavior was adversely affected by the fathers participation in abusive violence and that 26 Ibid.

Solomon et al. The authors have developed a questionnaire for combat exposure and abusive violence. The questions regarding abu- sive violence were as follows: 1 Were you ever in a combat situation in or around Vietnam where you participated in any kind of injury or destruction that seemed necessary then, but that you would consider unnecessary now?

To what extent were you involved in: 2 Terrorising, wounding, or killing civilians? Were you ever directly involved in a situation in Vietnam where women, children, or old people were either injured or killed by American or South Vietnamese ARVN soldiers? Were you ever directly involved in a situation where a Vietnamese prisoner was injured or killed for any reason? In the literature mainly on veterans of the conicts in Vietnam and Lebanon, there is evidence that the veterans PTSD symptoms affected their marital relationships, the wives mental health and social relations, and their childrens behavior.

Participation in abusive violence in particular seems to affect the behavior of the veterans children years later, even if PTSD is not present. The questionnaire developed to assess the abusive violence of Vietnam veterans would have been pertinent in exploring the same phe- nomenon in German World War II veterans involved in partisan warfare or mass murder of Jews in the East. Also addressed is that portion of the German population exposed to trauma high in responsi- bility, particularly on the eastern front, where a still undetermined number of Wehrmacht soldiers as well as soldiers of the Waffen-SS took part in or witnessed atrocities against Jews and other civilians.

At home in Germany, the pogrom and deportation of Jewish and communist neighbors also exposed many Germans to the experience of witnessing cruelties. What remains unclear is the subjective experience: What proportion of Germans felt that they had failed to prevent a killing and thus experienced a trauma high in responsibility? Diaries and interviews with children of Nazi perpetrators show evidence of avoidance and difculties in expressing emotions.

This extreme condition lasted for about three weeks; she then became pathologically indifferent, she did everything like an automaton. Here, historical methods differ from the often experimental design of research in the natural sciences. How- ever, the gures can yield an impression of the extent of trauma encountered by German combatants and by civilians.

In , the population of Germany proper was more than 69 million; add the people of Austria and the Sudetenland, and it rose to approximately 79 million. The extent of exposure to traumatic events differed markedly in various subgroups of the population according to their rank in the military structure for example, Wehrmacht soldiers and Waffen-SS and the areas where they lived as civilians or fought as soldiers. Wehrmacht soldiers who took part in the attack on Poland were the rst to be involved both in combat and in perpetration of atrocities.

At the beginning of September , there were about 4. Berlin, , vol. Bilanz der Forschung unter besonderer Ber ucksichtigung der Wehrmacht- und Vertreibungsverluste, in Wolfgang Michalka, ed. Translation by the authors. Concerning the casualties of the German armed forces, Overmans recently published new statistical data. See also Peter Marschalck, Bev olkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands im Jahrhundert Frankfurt am Main, , , table 1.

Munich , ; Bernhard R. Stuttgart, , vol. In fact, in only 1,, men out of 4. The attack on the Soviet Union on June 22, , was the beginning of a brutal campaign that led to the greatest toll of casualties for the German army. The survivors of this campaign had had to contend with various hardships, including harsh weather conditions, logistical problems, and, more important, the atrocities and dangers of combat and partisan warfare.

The average total troop strength of the German armed forces on the eastern front at any one time totaled 3. Surveys on the so-called Kriegsneurotiker war neurotics are worth men- tioning here. Many show that large numbers of troops had previously suf- fered mental disturbance during the war. According to Karl Heinz Roth, who scrutinized the reports of the Beratende Psychiater advising psychiatrists , before the attack on the Soviet Union in June suicides had become frequent and the rst reports of self-mutilations had surfaced.

During the winter of , the number of shell-shocked soldiers rose further, and the number of suicides and cases of self-mutilation already exceeded those com- mitted during World War I. After the Battle of Stalingrad, the number of shell-shock sufferers increased dramatically, and by the entire German army had reported about 20, to 30, Kriegsneurotiker. In the winter of , military hospitals alone counted more than , shell-shock sufferers. Jahrhunderts 3 : , see esp. His research is based on material from the Bundesarchiv Milit ararchiv at Freiburg im Breisgau.

In the summer of , the number of troops in the Waffen-SS totaled , men, 41 and by the end of the war another , to , Germans and men fromthe Baltic re- gion, Romania, and Hungary had joined these units. After the at- tack on the Soviet Union, four Einsatzgruppen of to 1, men each were formed; a total of 4, men thus went into action in the Baltic, in Belorussia, Ukraine, Bessarabia, Crimea, and the Caucasus. Most participated in or witnessed atrocities.

Although many of the perpetrators were deeply in- uenced by Nazi ideology and were therefore convinced of the necessity of their deeds, there are reports that some could stand participating in such atrocities only under the inuence of alcohol. However, according to the American litera- ture on Vietnam veterans, one would expect the highest rates of PTSD in combatants particularly if they took part in atrocities. Perpetrators who qualify for trauma high in responsibility generally have high rates of suicide.

However, personal acceptance of responsibility is crucial. Not only men served on the western and eastern fronts: A large num- ber of women worked as Wehrmachtshelferinnen female military aides , for example, as secretaries or anti-aircraft auxiliaries. Depending on the cir- cumstances, many of these mainly young women were exposed to combat; however, there is no research on how they coped with their experiences.

In the summer of , about 50, women and girls were deployed as anti-aircraft auxiliaries, and at the beginning of the total number of 41 Kroener, Ressourcen, , table: St arkeentwicklung der Wehrmachtteile und der Waffen-SS vom 1. September bis 1. Juli See also Overmans, Verluste, Browning also mentions the case of an SS-Hauptsturmf uhrer who became ill during the killing activities of his battalion, For instance, women of the Wehrmacht retinue did not have the status of combatants and therefore did not count as POWs when they were captured.

Moreover, the place of captivity is not insignicant, as prisoners in the Soviet Union were often bundled off to labor camps where men had to toil in quarries and often were threatened with death or serious injury. One of the long-term consequences of malnutrition was dystrophy, from which many of the POWs in Soviet camps suffered. In , there were more than 1. However, the gures do not give us a description of the injuries sustained. Moreover, there is no information on the contribution of psychological factors to the degree of invalidity.

From onward, the intensied 46 M uller and Uebersch ar, Kriegsende, Also Kroener, Ressourcen, , Hintergr unde und Probleme der ostdeutsch- sowjetischen Heimkehrerverhandlungen, in Annette Kaminsky, ed. See also Overmans, Verluste, , In , a total of 4 million homes had been destroyed in Germany alone. The air raids had killed , civilians; , were wounded, and 7. Some of the people who were bombed out had to live in temporary shelters for years.

For instance, in Cologne 70 percent of the housing stock a total of , apartments was destroyed, and in Dortmund and Duisburg more than half of the prewar dwellings were completely annihilated. Sixty-one percent of the citys housing stock was destroyed, and one million people were left homeless.

It meant blackouts in the evening, a ban on going out, and huddling for hours in air-raid shelters with old and sick people and with screaming children. In some cases, women had to give birth without medical help while the build- ing burned around them and detonations made a terrible noise heralding death. There are reports of women who consid- ered suicide because they felt hopeless but did not kill themselves because of the children.

Eight-hundred West Germans over age 18 were 54 Bernd J. Wendt, Deutschland Das Dritte Reich. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and World War II 29 asked about their dreams: 26 percent of the female interviewees described dreaming about the air raids, 9 percent of the male interviewees reported dreams of the ring line at the front, and 3 percent of those reporting dreams felt tormented by them.

In the winter of , women and girls, particularly in the eastern regions of Germany, suffered another traumatic experience when they became the victims of mass rapes. Current research on the topic is scant because it was not discussed in public until recently. Helke Sander and Barbara Johr tried to establish gures for Berlin using esti- mates and projections, and they came to the conclusion that between April and September of , after the invasion of the Red Army, nearly , of 1.

About 7 percent of all women in Berlin were raped, regardless of their age or appearance. Over one thousand children were born as a result of the rapes, while the number of abortions cannot be estimated due to the high proportion of unreported cases.

However, his estimates, as well as those of Sander and Johr, have not been replicated and their methodology is not always clear. Asked about their war experiences, women ex- plained that they could not reveal to their husbands the terrible experience of being raped and that they tried to forget it.

Often with little or no notice, the refugees had to leave behind most of their belongings and undertake a dangerous and arduous journey to western Germany with 61 Elisabeth Noelle and Erich P. Neumann, eds. Allensbach, , 9. Between and , the Institut f ur Demoskopie at Allensbach inter- viewed different strata of the West German population.

They used a questionnaire including 2, questions. The results as well as the questions are published in the book v. See also Sander and Johr, Befreier und Befreite, 90, 92, Between and , nearly 7 million refugees and expellees from the eastern areas of Germany and nearly 4 million Germans from Czechoslovakia, the Baltic region, Poland, Hungary, Yugoslavia, and Romania moved to the western zones of occupation.

In addition, more than two million died during their ight or were reported missing. Far frombeing put aside in silence, the horrors of expulsion and ight were used as a political tool in the discussion about the crimes of Nazi Germany. They served to prove that Germans themselves had suffered and to equate their victimization with that of the Jews and other victims of Nazi policy. The West German government, for example, funded a massive research project that centered on about 11, eyewitness accounts and was published in eight volumes from the mids onward.

The answers give us a good im- pression of the proportion of participants who had experienced traumatic events: 58 percent of the interviewees had to worry about family members; 51 percent lost family members; 41 percent had experienced air raids; 36 percent had a father or brother who had been a POW for a long period; 21 percent were bombed out with their family; 21 percent had to ee or were deported after the war; and 19 percent had a family member who was disabled.

M uller and Uebersch ar, Kriegsende, The traumatic experiences of children were also discussed at the be- ginning of the s: Volker Ackermann, Deutsche Fl uchtlingskinder nach , in Dittmar Dahlmann, ed. Robert G. The interviewees could give more than one answer. See also about mentality and the question if one can recognize a person who took part in the war. Is it permissible to draw conclusions from epidemiological ndings from the Vietnam or other wars to generate hypotheses about World War II?

Such an approach would not be at all unusual in medical research. Rape and death-threats are regarded as stressors that can cause functional brain changes, which then can lead to symptoms of PTSD in war or peace and across cul- tures. There is no methodological problem in generating hypotheses from a civilian traumatic situation, such as rape in an inner city, to understand a war- related trauma, for example, PTSD in women who were raped in Bosnia.

We are fully aware of how difcult it is to use data from medical epidemi- ological studies in order to generate hypotheses about social phenomena. In medical research, no distinction is made between life-threatening vio- lence in different cultures or whether the life-threatening event is civilian or war-related. Other variables deemed crucial in medicine, such as genetic vulnerability, are not part of the social science concepts. Several factors such as duration and severity of the trauma, previous trauma, and previous mental illness can increase or diminish the risk of developing symptoms.

Moreover, an event can be equally distressing to the perpetrator as to the victim of violence. It is germane to medical and particularly foren- sic research to avoid moral judgment. The term post-traumatic stress disorder, which describes symptoms following trauma, does not necessarily imply that the sufferer is a victim. Some symptoms occur in perpetrators of violence who were also exposed to life-threatening events. We believe that it can be useful as long as one is constantly aware of the pitfalls.

Neither author is a specialist on postwar Germany; however, we believe that it could be interesting to explore how symptoms translate into social phenomena. The research on families 70 For a review of epidemiological research of post-traumatic stress disorder, see OBrien, Traumatic Events, In the chapter the occurrence of disorder following a range of civilian and war- related trauma is described.

Contemporary diaries or other sources could be used to investigate whether similar behavioral patterns can be found in the s and to generate new hypotheses regarding how such behavior could have inuenced society. We are fully aware that the task of bridging the gap between what constitutes individual behavior and its inuence on the nuclear family and explaining social phenomena remains unresolved. Only further discussion can help us nd solutions. There is some circumstantial evidence from the Allensbach opin- ion poll, which does not include combat experience, that psychological problems were not infrequent.

In the same year, 31 percent of a sample of two thousand West German men and women complained of nervous problems, although we do not know what percentage was trauma related, and we have no information that would allow us to make a diagnosis. There is no doubt that, considering the severity of the traumatic events particularly in the East and on the eastern front, one would expect up to 70 percent of those who were refugees from the East or soldiers on the eastern front to develop PTSD either on its own or combined with other psychological problems, particularly alcohol abuse.

We would also expect, as described for Vietnam veterans, higher divorce rates. However, even assuming that, given a certain trauma, symptoms of PTSD occur at similar levels independent of cultural inuences, the way one deals with such traumatized individuals is strongly dependent on social factors. Furthermore, how the trauma experience and subsequent pathology inu- ence a society depends on the interaction between illness variables and social phenomena.

In Britain, they received group therapy; in Germany, electroshock treatments. In Germany after the war, doctors, psychologists, welfare workers, and church representatives turned their attention to soldiers returning from the front. Of foremost im- portance here, however, was treating dystrophy, and professional psychiatric help was given only to very few POWs. Our review of the literature shows how difcult it would be to try to make precise estimates of the proportion of the population affected by symp- toms of post-traumatic stress disorder in Germany.

A more viable aim would be to compare a low-trauma with a high-trauma group. Relevant stressors and symptoms could be chosen from the psychiatric literature; for example, suicide and suicide attempts could be regarded as markers for taking part in atrocities. One could also compare divorce rates in members of the Einsatzgruppen, in soldiers with high combat exposure, and in soldiers with low combat exposure.

Although the ideal of the happy family was strongly upheld in the s, this image was in stark contrast to the reality of high divorce rates. Be- tween and , the divorce rate rose. In , the rate was 7. Many couples were separated for years, making an ordinary married life impossible.

As one woman pointed out: Naturally I knew it would be difcult. We had not lived together properly yet. Half a year of marriage and then the war. It was not a proper marriage, and what it means to have children and what their needs are he never realized during his leave. Nevertheless, one can assume that some of the divorces resulted from the 73 Leonid Ischenin, Die deutschen Heimkehrer und die Massnahmen zu ihrer Eingliederung unter Ber ucksichtigung der Umsiedler aus dem Osten Cologne, , ; Extreme Lebensverh altnisse und ihre Folgen.

Handbuch der arztlichen Erfahrungen aus der Gefangenschaft, Schriftenreihe des arztlich- wissenschaftlichen Beirates des Verbandes der Heimkehrer Deutschlands e. Bad Godesberg, See also Robert G. Indications to this effect may be found in the numerous interviews with women and men who were asked about their postwar experiences and who often talked about the changed character of their husband, wife, or parent.

He was burdened by it, but you could not get him to talk about it. In her book about womens mem- ories of their fathers return from the war, Ingeborg Bruns describes how some of the men behaved like patriarchs and tried to dominate their families. In a few cases, violence against wives and children occurred. Such archive-based research could be supplemented by interviews with surviving soldiers and their children. Within the framework of oral history, one could get a better and more systematic account of the personal experience of the war generation and the effect it had on their children.

This could contribute to a better understanding of the childrens behavior later on. Especially the s could be investigated in this light. These are well described by Lutz Niethammer, who points out that inter- views with traumatized people should not be done without psychological help. Also Jureit and Meyer, Verletzungen.

Wer hat eigentlich unseren Eltern geholfen, mit dem Schrecklichen zurechtzukom- men, das da in ihr Leben eingebrochen war? Man hat es verdr angt und totgeschwiegen. Aber es war doch da! But why did father and mother never speak about their personal experi- ences, never about their thoughts and feelings about what happened during the Third Reich?

Who actually helped our parents come to terms with the horror that disrupted their lives? People repressed it and kept silent. But it was there. From several detailed studies of individual experiences of trauma and its inuence on marriage and children, one could generate further hypotheses about how the experience of violence and subsequent symptoms of PTSD helped to shape the society of the s as it was ex- perienced by our parents and has been described in detail by historians and sociologists.

After Germany had to cope with the deaths of about seven million soldiers and roughly half a million civilians, many killed in air raids. In addition, there was an unknown number of refugees and prisoners of war. At the same time, the German people were confronted with the moral and political consequences of a military catastrophe, the destruction of many towns, occupation, and the undeniable crimes that the Nazi regime and the Wehrmacht had committed during the war.

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